After nearly 50 years, NASA plans to put someone on the moon. Is it worth it?
Sometime soon, NASA plans to launch a powerful new rocket. The launch is part of an ambitious quest to get people back to the moon for the first time in half a century — and just maybe, even further.
Today, why the U.S. and its partners are determined to go back to the moon and the role politics plays when we reach for the stars. Read the full transcript here.
Host: Gustavo Arellano
Guests: L.A. Times business reporter Samantha Masunaga
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Gustavo Arellano: Sometime soon, NASA plans to launch a powerful new rocket.
AP tape: The $4.1-billion test flight of NASA's Artemis moon exploration program aims to send the capsule around the moon and back with three test dummies on board.
Gustavo: The launch is part of an ambitious quest to get people back to the moon for the first time in half a century. And, just maybe, even further.
Jim Bridenstine: This is the way that we learn so that we can eventually go to Mars.
Gustavo: But many people are criticizing the scope and the cost of the plan while others can't help but shrug and say, eh, been there, done that.
Michael Collins: I don't want to go back to the moon. I want to go direct to Mars.
Gustavo: Oh, and there's also the thing that this launch has already cost billions of dollars and been delayed twice.
I'm Gustavo Arellano. You're listening to The Times, essential news from the L.A. Times. It's Friday, Sept. 16, 2022. Today, why the U.S. and its partners are determined to go back to the moon, and the role politics plays when we reach for the stars.
Here to talk about these lunar missions is my L.A. Times colleague, business reporter Samantha Masunaga. Samantha, welcome to The Times.
Samantha Masunaga: Hey, Gustavo. Thanks for having me on.
Gustavo: OK. I'm not a space guy outside of Grogu and the Ewoks. So what is NASA's mission plan to get astronauts back to the moon?
Samantha: So it all revolves around their new Artemis program. Artemis in Greek mythology is the sister of Apollo, uh, sun God. Artemis is also the moon goddess. Um, it's some nice symbolism there between the original moon program, the Apollo missions in the ‘60s and ‘70s. And now with Artemis today.
So today with the Artemis program, what NASA's trying to do, is go back to the moon. But this time, not just to land, collect samples and go back home. This time, NASA wants to stay.
Vice President Pence: In this still new century, America's not only gonna return to the moon, but we're gonna return there with new objectives.
Samantha: It was something that was established during the Trump administration.
Pence: So at the president's direction, we've put an end to decades of budget cuts and decline, and we've renewed America's commitment to human space exploration.
Samantha: This time, the goal is to land the first woman and the first person of color on the moon, no earlier than 2025.
Pence: And ensure that the next man and the first woman on the moon will be American astronauts.
Samantha: NASA wants to establish a long-term human presence on the moon, help their astronauts learn how to live and work in space and use all that knowledge to eventually move forward and get to Mars missions.
President Trump: We will not only plant our flag and leave our footprint. We will establish a foundation for an eventual mission to Mars, and perhaps someday to many worlds beyond.
Samantha: And this is a program that's been the collection of a number of earlier initiatives to either go back to the moon, land on an asteroid. It’s the latest incarnation and one that looks like it's gonna move forward.
Their new Artemis program got continued under the Biden administration.
Gustavo: All of that sounds pretty cool, but I do know one thing about Artemis; the first launch for it, there’s been some issues with it, right?
Samantha: Right. So the Artemis I mission, uh, which is supposed to just send the crew capsule without anyone aboard around the moon, pretty delayed and over-budget. It was originally supposed to launch in November 2018. You know, now it's obviously, several years later. They've gone over budget in terms of development. It's now about $3 billion over budget for a total development cost of about $11 billion. And the most recent launch attempts have had a couple of scrubs; one for a faulty sensor, and then another one with a hydrogen fuel leak. So there have been some issues just getting it out to the pad, and just getting it into space.
Gustavo: So when it does finally launch, what's gonna be the goal for this particular first mission?
Samantha: So, what NASA wants to do with this mission is really try to test out the technology and make sure everything is working OK before they send a crew, ideally on Artemis II. So this mission is gonna go around the moon. It's gonna be somewhere between 37 and 42 days, and they really wanna test things like the heat shield on the crew capsule, make sure that it can withstand all of the heat of reentry, from space back to Earth. They wanna see how long the equipment can last. And they wanna check on the rocket. The rocket itself is known as the space launch system, um, it's built by Boeing, and they wanna make sure that, you know, everything is OK with this rocket, with the Orion crew capsule, which is built by Lockheed Martin just before they put humans on board. This is the last test flight before it's really in prime time with astronauts. So you wanna make sure that all of that is OK.
Gustavo: So there's not gonna be anyone on this first mission?
Samantha: No, there's not gonna be anyone on this mission. They're launching a couple of Cubesats, um, which are really small satellites, but no actual people. But what there is in there are three mannequins, one name, um, Moonikin Campos. That's gonna test the full suit, you know, the full space suit that astronauts would wear. And then two mannequin torsos, and those are named Helga and Zohar, and they're just gonna test radiation levels, you know, see what the astronauts would be experiencing while in space. Snoopy's gonna be onboard…
Gustavo: Oh, cool. Snoopy. I like Snoopy, but why is Snoopy going to the moon?
Samantha: Yeah, it seems a little random, but actually Snoopy dates back to the Apollo missions. One of the capsules was referred to as Snoopy because it was snooping around the moon. And so Snoopy has kind of kept that association with space and with NASA all the way till today.
Gustavo: What are people saying about Artemis and NASA's plan though, to establish a permanent human colony on the moon?
Samantha: So, some critics say that it's really too expensive, um, and that it could have been done more cheaply. And then there are a number of folks, including former Apollo astronauts, who feel like going back to the moon is kind of going backwards. They feel like we've already been there. Why are we going back? We should really set our sites further to Mars, a place we haven't explored yet. But, you know, on the other hand, some folks are really excited.
CROSSTALK: All right, Dava, are you still there? I sure am. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Uh, perfect.
Samantha: I spoke with former NASA Deputy Administrator Dava Newman.
CROSSTALK: Great so we, uh, are recording now.
Samantha: She talked about how this is gonna help increase interest in space, you know, kind of bring the moon landings home for a new generation that wasn't around like myself, during the Apollo landings and all of those Apollo missions.
Dava Newman: It's been over 50 years and, uh, I'm an aerospace engineer because of the Apollo program. That's just how inspiring it was to, I think, you know, a whole generation.
Samantha: And really increased interest in STEM, around the world, not just in the U.S.
Dava: We just can't wait. And this is, of course, this’ll just be Artemis I the first, and then we will send people to the moon in the coming years. And then we will just keep going back to the moon. And that's, that's what I'm excited about.
Gustavo: So the end goal isn't just, OK, we landed people on the moon. Yay us?
Samantha: Right. The ultimate end goal is getting to Mars and trying to build up the ability and sort of the experience to really get to Mars this time around.
You know, there's a lot that NASA and space agencies in general need to know before they send humans to Mars.
Jim Bridenstine: That's the goal. Eventual human mission to Mars.
Samantha: Former NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine was a really big proponent of this sort of this live and work in space close to home before moving to Mars.
Jim: We have to be able to live and work on another world for long periods of time using the resources of that world. The best way to prove those capabilities and prove those technologies is to do it at the moon.
Samantha: You know, it's a nine-month trip to Mars. You deal with radiation on the way over there. You know, there's a lot of things about living and being in space for an extended period of time that NASA and other space agencies are really gonna have to figure out before they attempt these crude missions over there. And the moon is closer, you know, it's not gonna take you months and months to get over there. So…
Jim: The moon is always with the Earth. It is a three-day journey home.
Samantha: If you need to go back home to Earth, not a huge deal.
Jim: We know what happens when bad things happen on the way to the moon. We’ve seen it with Apollo 13. Our astronauts can make it home safely.
Gustavo: But when it comes to space, scientific understanding is never the only objective. That's after the break.
Gustavo: Samantha, people who support NASA's new mission to get people back to the moon and then from there, go to Mars. They tend to point to all the scientific breakthroughs that Artemis is supposed to give us. But throughout history, politics, I know that much, has always been a big driver in space exploration.
Samantha: No, you're totally right, Gustavo. I mean, even during the Apollo program that happened during the Cold War and space was kind of the next frontier for the U.S. and the Soviet Union to face off at.
News clip: The first artificial Earth satellite in the world has now been created.
Samantha: Once the Soviet Union launched Sputnik, um, in 1957, it surprised a lot of Americans.
News clip: This first satellite was today successfully launched in the USSR.
Gustavo: It was like an existential moment for the country.
Samantha: Right, right. Just because folks didn't think that was gonna be possible that quickly then, the Soviet Union launches, uh, Yuri Gagarin.
News clip: American prestige was jolted as the world heard the quickened pulses of Vostok 1 orbiting the Earth. Yuri Gagarin became the first man in space.
Samantha: Yuri Gagarin, um, is the first Russian cosmonaut in space. The first person in space, actually in 1961. And that's when Kennedy announces well, OK, the U.S. is gonna land a man on the moon.
President Kennedy: I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the Earth.
Samantha: You know, not just put him in space, but gonna land him.
Clip: Since the earliest time, man has imagined this moment. The moment when his fellow man would make the first journey to the moon.
Samantha: The Apollo 11 moon landing in 1969 was a huge deal.
Mission Control: 12, 11, 10, 9. Ignition sequence starts. 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 1,0.
Samantha: Not only was it gonna be the first Americans setting foot on the moon, but it was the first people in general setting foot on the moon.
Mission Control: All engines running. Liftoff, we have a liftoff, 32 minutes past the hour, liftoff on Apollo 11.
Neil Armstrong: Houston, Tranquility base here. The Eagle has landed.
Mission Control: Roger, Tranquility. Down here on the ground we got a bunch of guys about to turn blue. We’re breathing again. Thanks a lot.
Samantha: And it was just a huge event worldwide. Folks stopped, took time outta their day, watched the landing, also watched the launch. Schoolchildren all over watched it on televisions in their classrooms. And folks say it was a really inspirational moment.
Mission Control: OK, we can see you coming down the ladder now.
Samantha: You have Neil Armstrong getting out of the orbiter first.
Neil: I’m at the foot of the ladder. The L.M. foot beds are only depressed in the surface about one or two inches.
Samantha: Setting foot on the moon for the first time.
Neil: That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind.
Samantha: Speaking the first words on the moon. Then comes his fellow astronaut Buzz Aldrin being second man on the moon. Michael Collins is in the orbiter, making sure everything's safe, making sure that his two colleagues are able to get back into the orbiter and get back to Earth. Just the significance of that moment really can't be understated.
NASA: All right. Geez. That's great. Is the lighting halfway decent? Yes indeed. They've got the flag up now and you can see the Stars and Stripes. Beautiful, just beautiful.
Samantha: Some of the early space exploration goals were so tied up in what the geopolitics of the time was that, you know, it's sort of impossible to think of Apollo without also thinking of the Cold War.
Gustavo: Yeah, it's always a metaphor. I mean, the whole idea of us literally planting the American flag on the moon as if we discovered the moon, you know, and also like metaphors for capitalism versus communism, all these other things.
Samantha: Right. And over the years, my colleagues and I have talked to some of these former Apollo engineers who say that, yeah, you know, politics was a huge part of getting the funding to do these missions. Even though they say that in the control room, you know, it was all about the exploration, it was all about the science. But getting the funding is a huge part of that.
Gustavo: What about since the end of the Cold War? Like how has Russia and the U.S. collaborated in space since then?
Samantha: Yeah, that's been really interesting because since the end of the Cold War,no matter what sorts of geopolitical issues there are on Earth between Russia and the U.S., for the most part that hasn't really extended into space. The International Space Station is this sort of international collaboration between the U.S., Russia and other countries. Russian and U.S. and other international astronauts all live up there all at the same time, all collaborating. And for a long time, the U.S. was relying on Russian rockets to get NASA astronauts up to space. But you know, recently with the war in Ukraine, even the space collaboration that has for so long been kind of immune from these sort of earthly political issues, is kind of more at risk. Russia is saying that they're gonna pull out of the space station collaboration after 2024. So we'll have to see how that goes and whether geopolitics is really gonna continue to extend into space.
Gustavo: Yeah. And it's not just tension with Russia now. I know that China has been trying to develop its own space program. So what's going on with that?
Samantha: So China also wants to develop a presence on the moon. And they're partnering with Russia to build a base on the south pole of the moon. Which is also where NASA wants to land the first woman and the first person of color, um, in 2025. And China's also building its own space station.
All three of those countries, China, the U.S. and Russia are all now sort of battling for dominance of low-Earth orbit. You know, there's a lot of satellites up there. There's a lot of concern about what sorts of anti-satellite weapons that Russian and China are developing or maybe are working on that could blow up a satellite. So there's a lot of geopolitical issues going on there.
Gustavo: So is Artemis you think then a response to the fears of that space race dominance?
Samantha: I don't think so. I do think that Artemis is still a collaboration between other countries, but I do think that as Artemis progresses, and China and Russia go forward with their own plans for the moon, that there will probably be some issues there.
Gustavo: More after the break.
Gustavo: Samantha, you mentioned other countries being part of Artemis, who are they?
Samantha: So Japan, Canada, a lot of European nations, um, are all partnered with the Artemis program.
Jim: I'm Jim Bridenstine. I am here today to talk about the future. A future that is peaceful, free of conflict, and one where humanity explores and develops the moon and Mars in harmony.
Samantha: There's this sort of international space diplomacy framework called the Artemis Accords.
NASA: The principles described in the Artemis Accords are what will create a bright and prosperous future that we all want for ourselves, and for generations to come.
Samantha: A lot of countries have signed on and said that they agree to explore the moon in a peaceful manner.
NASA: These principles are grounded in the outer space treaty, the very foundation of international space law.
Samantha: This is how we'll all sort of collaborate on, on missions and landings and moon minerals that we might find there.
NASA: Achieving this future will require both vision and action, which is why it's my pleasure to sign, on behalf of the United States of America, the Artemis Accords.
Samantha: And it's everything from, you know, just the general agreement to all these principles, all the way to some countries are contributing, um, technology and hardware for moon landings and moon bases.
NASA: So for all of our international partners who are joining us today in the Artemis Accords, let's sign.
Samantha: So there's a lot of different opportunities for those countries to all get involved.
Gustavo: And it's not just countries. I know that billionaires are going up there, like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos… It's like a total gold rush to get into what's out there. And I did read that NASA's calling all of this the new lunar economy, but what exactly is that?
Samantha: Yeah. So it's the idea that once humans go back to the moon to stay that there is money to be made up there.
Folks have said things like, maybe you can mine the moon, get minerals from there, send it back to Earth? And that maybe is a way to get some more minerals that are harder to get on Earth. There's everything from, you know, maybe can tourists go around the moon and, you know, companies are building rockets and building capsules that would allow for that. It's hard to tell how big this market could be, just because it doesn't exist yet. But there's no shortage of companies trying to figure out, what are ways that we can make money from this and how can we prepare for that now?
Gustavo: How is a private sector involved in the Artemis missions or lobbying to, you know, get a part of that?
Samantha: Yeah, so there have been a bunch of companies that have either won or are currently competing for contracts to be part of Artemis. Last year, SpaceX won a contract to land some of the first humans on the moon, um, with their Starship human lander. Northrop Grumman is working on things like parts of a lunar gateway that would sort of be the go between, between being in space and landing on the moon. Northrop and Lockheed Martin are also working on lunar terrain vehicles where astronauts can drive around the moon. So there's already been a lot of contracts out to industry for how to be a part of that. And going forward with a sustained presence, I imagine, there will only be more contracts.
Gustavo: So have we moved beyond government's dominating space exploration?
Samantha: I don't know if I would say totally moved beyond it, but there's definitely a huge private industry presence now that there never was before, and certainly wasn't during the Apollo missions. Now there's a lot of companies that have really robust launch capabilities that could maybe one day help out with just general transport to the moon. And that sort of industry presence is way larger than it ever has been before. It's clearly not just space is for governments anymore, space is for whatever company has the capacity and the resources to go up there.
Gustavo: With this big push, then…what are the potential pitfalls… or even opportunities… of having so many nations, and companies and people trying to get into space?
Samantha: Yeah. So it is getting pretty crowded. There's companies like SpaceX, and also Amazon, that are launching, uh, satellites that would provide broadband internet. There's concerns about collisions between those satellites, or those satellites interfering with astronomy and images up there. So there's a lot of concern about how that's all going to work, how you continue to send more people and more things into space as there's already starting to be more and more things in between, you know, Earth and the moon. But the other opportunity for this is that with more companies involved, the idea is that hopefully the price tag for some of these missions gets a little bit cheaper.
Gustavo: Finally, Samantha, all of this sounds cool. I mean, hey, going into space…being on the moon…but what does it mean for people like you and me? I hate to ask questions so blunt like this, but honestly why should people care? There's so many problems right now going on. And, I do know one thing about the space race in the ‘60s that that exact same critique was done back then made back then when there were so many issues, ‘cause I always remember this song by Gil Scott Harron called “Whitey on the Moon,” it was literally called “Whitey on the Moon,” and it critiqued this very idea of like, why should we spend billions of dollars just so we can be up on the moon?
Samantha: Yeah. So that is a really common critique. And when I spoke with Dava Newman, the former NASA deputy administrator about this, something she really talked about was how inspiring the Apollo missions were, for students, for young people.
Dava: Remember what Apollo did for the world. Really everyone around the world said, “Yep, we went to the moon” and that's exactly what we wanna say, “we” meaning humanity went to the moon, we don't divide it by nation state.
Samantha: And what she had said was that the Artemis missions and going back to the moon and, you know, eventually onto Mars, could be that same sort of inspiration.
Dava: It's democratizing space and access. Every person, every schoolchild, every nation, every space agency can say, “Yeah, we're getting into space.” People don't have to think of space now as something, you know, other worldly, it's just another realm.
Samantha: Other scientists say that, going back to the moon and really taking the time to be able to do more research and collect more samples, really helps us understand more about the Earth itself and the Earth's formation and that history, and, you know, going into space helps us learn more about us on Earth.
Gustavo: Yeah. I mean, we've always looked to the stars, right?
Samantha: Yeah, definitely.
Gustavo: Samantha, thank you so much for this conversation.
Samantha: Thanks, Gustavo.
Gustavo: And that’s it for this episode of The Times, essential news from the L.A. Times.
Kasia Broussalian and Shannon Lin were the jefas on this episode, and Mike Heflin mixed and mastered it.
Our show is produced by Shannon Lin, Denise Guerra, Kasia Broussalian, David Toledo and Ashlea Brown. Our editorial assistant is Madalyn Amato. Our engineers are Mario Diaz, Mark Nieto and Mike Heflin. Our editor is Kinsee Morlan. Our executive producers are Jazmín Aguilera, Shani Hilton and Heba Elorbany. And our theme music is by Andrew Eapen.
I'm Gustavo Arellano. We'll be back next week with all the news and desmadre. Gracias.