Our Masters of Disasters are back to give us some solace in these very dark and hot times. This month: burnout among those on the front lines, and how to hold on to a little hope.
So many disasters, so little time. And it’s the same group of people on the front lines, year after year. What happens when they get tired? Today, our Masters of Disaster talk about burnout among firefighters, scientists, doctors and the people we trust to take on the biggest calamities nature throws at us — as well as how to hold on to a little hope. Read the full transcript here.
Host: Gustavo Arellano
Guests: L.A. Times reporters Rong-Gong Lin II, Rosanna Xia and Alex Wigglesworth
More reading:
Hellish fires, low pay, trauma: California’s Forest Service firefighters face a morale crisis
Almost 9 in 10 Californians live in areas with high COVID-19 levels as BA.5 fuels infections
Editorial: Let’s make 2022 the year we all get angry about climate inaction
TAPE: Oil has been washing up on Southern California beaches all week. Since a leak in an underwater pipeline sent thousands of gallons of heavy crude into ocean waters.
This earthquake reminds us yet. Once again, that in California, we have to be prepared for anything and everything.
Gustavo: So many disasters. So little time, and it's the same group of people fighting them, year round, for years. So when they get tired, uh, what happens?
BEAT drop
Gustavo: I'm Gustavo Arellano. You're listening to The Times, daily news from the LA times. It’s Monday, July 18, 2022.
Gustavo: Today: // Burnout… it's real. America has seen a great resignation of millions since the start of COVID 19 and we could snicker all we want when it's office workers or baristas or other white collar folks ditching a job for // hashtag van life.
Gustavo: But how about when it's firefighters, scientists, doctors, the people we entrust with the worst of the worst that mother nature throws at us and that we humans keep making worse and worse.
Mux fade out
Gustavo: It's times like these, where we fall back on our monthly panel apparel, my colleagues of catastrophe, these Renoirs of Ragnar who try to give us solace and these very, very dark and hot times.
Gustavo: Yep. It's time for our masters of disaster. ZZA ZZA.
Gustavo: Musica, maestro
MOD Theme in
Gustavo: In the wildfire chair. We have Alex Wigglesworth Alex. When you see people burning firewood for barbecues, what do you do?
Alex: Make s'mores.
Gustavo: Covering earthquakes is Ron Lin…any chance Ron that you can put a giant N95 mask on the San Andreas fault so the Big One never comes?
Ron: We just need some big rubber bands.
Gustavo: Okay. Okay, good to know. I'll beyond that. And finally, our Cassandra of the coast, Rosana Shaw.
Gustavo: I heard that in addition to being declared an honorary tern seabird this year (why was she declared an honorary bird? what are we listeners missing here?), you now have a superpower. What is it?
Rosanna: Gustavo. I hate to break it to you, but I think you've already made this joke before.
Gustavo: Did I?
Rosanna: Your jokes are like a starfish. No matter how many times the leg gets cut off, it just grows back. ///
Ding Ding sound effect
Gustavo: Or maybe it's just my bad jokes that happen. That must be regenerative jokes. That's what Rosana gots. Welcome all. Alex, let's start with you. I wanna ask about these viral resignation letters going around from force service firefighters. What do they say?
Alex: Yeah. So I recently wrote about a resignation letter written by a really accomplished, experienced fire service firefighter and was widely shared within the agency and externally. Because it gave voice to a lot of frustrations that many federal firefighters share right now. The firefighter, Chris Mariano was the squad boss of the Truckee interagency hotshot crew, which is a really elite unit.
Mux in
Alex: He wrote that… there’s a dire retention issue and people are leaving at a terrifying rate…. Increasingly complex fires.
Mux out
Gustavo: Rosana. Coastal erosion, rising sea levels, devastated ecosystems. They're like incremental catastrophe. And we've gotten better at getting people to care. And yet mother nature continues and people don't seem to care enough. So the scientists that you talk to on the coast, do they feel like they're in the movie? Don't look up and they're screaming at waves like Leo and Jayla for people to pay attention to no avail?
Rosanna: Ha. I mean, I agree that a lot more people are starting to care about climate change. It's hard not to when drought and wildfires have become so in your face and our firefighters are tapping out. But what I have noticed in California is that the debate isn't whether climate change is happening. It's how much time we have. Is this something that we have to deal with now? Or can we continue business as usual and not worry about this for another 50, 60, 70 years? And the void that most scientists and environmentalists are screaming into right now is getting more people to realize that we are running out of time to argue about when is the right time to take action. There's a lot of talking in circles right now, and we are running outta time to plan and argue and think about thinking about what the solution should be. So for the scientists and engineers who see the facts so clearly, the political and social aspects of climate change can be exhausting.
Gustavo: Yeah. I mean, because with firefighters, you're fighting fires right there that could kill you immediately. And there's a lot of labor, but sometimes that existential and moral and political weight is even more crushing in many ways.
Rosanna: Yeah, and it's really hard to communicate. And I say this too as a reporter in this space, but I will say the science communication has gotten a lot better. And as scientists have become more open about talking about their own frustrations, it has created more of a community around this, which has been really powerful to see, especially when scientists get personal about the issues that they are studying. // I think // a lot of parents I've talked to the // way they talk about how they are wrestling with what kind of world we're leaving behind for our children, I think has really also added depth to this conversation.
Gustavo: Ron, you’re Mr. Earthquake but Bizaro Ron is Mr. COVID. And our colleagues have done many, many stories about fatigue among frontline workers who have been working to fight the pandemic, now what, two and a half years and going? And now more variants are more contagious and more, more, more. How burnt out are they about shouting into that // anti-vaccine void and dealing with surge after surge?
Ron: Yeah, it's an incredible strain. And // there have been plenty of nurses and other healthcare providers who have just said, you know what? It's too much; I'm out. It's a drain. I mean, this was also an issue even before COVID, but COVID has dramatically worsened it. In fact, the surgeon general actually issued a whole // advisory, addressing health worker burnout. And one of the things that // the surgeon general said was that fear, loneliness and uncertainty were pervasive. The threat of targeted harassment and violence underscored many interactions, and some health workers were forced to wall themselves from their loved ones. It is a difficult time, not only in the healthcare industry, but also even among, uh, veterinarians as well. ///
Gustavo: If we don't have nurses and doctors anymore, uh, how do we fight? COVID do we fight it with Vicks vapor rub?
Ron: I mean, you know, what, if it comes down to that? In fact, there have been studies that in which they expect that // by the year 2033, there could be a shortage of a hundred thousand physicians by then. And health officials warn that the most alarming gaps are expected in primary care and rural communities. So the result could just be that it's just harder to find a doctor. I mean, I I'm sure, uh, you know, many of you have had a situation where we need medical care and, and the wait // to get an appointment is long and it's not a good situation. Officials really need to figure out a way to kind of address healthcare worker burnout. Otherwise it's just gonna get harder and harder to get the medical care that we need.
Mux in
Gustavo: Tijuana care. Here we come. We'll be right back.
Mux bump to fade out
BREAK 1
Gustavo: We've talked on masters of disasters, many times about how California and really the west used to have disaster seasons. There was wildfire season. Then the rainy season there'd be spills on the coast or sick animals wash, ashore. Big earthquakes, every couple of decades, but now it's year round. And so when disaster is a year-round thing, Rosana, how does our thinking change and how does really our life outlook change?
Rosanna: One thing that I see a lot of in the climate space. And, and this is related to burnout, is grief. Climate grief is something we talk a lot about in the climate space. How do you maintain hope? When so much of the science about the future fills us with despair. And not to get too philosophical, but hope the opposite of despair, is what leads to action. And I would argue that to still have hope is a form of action. So, one way I've been trying to cope is to make sure that there is still hope in the stories that we write about the long term and the short term future, both in which we really have had trouble envisioning. And I also try to ask the people I interview to remind me and our readers and to remind themselves what still gives them hope, because that really is what we need to wrestle with. Just so many emotions about the future.
Gustavo: Yeah and it's really hard, Alex, for firefighters, cuz they're a very proud profession. I mean, they're elite. They call themselves hotshots. Like that shows how much they care about themselves. But when you're fighting this every single month, it seems all across the west and bigger and bigger, uh, fires. Surely it must change. Like it must dissuade. I would think, like, younger people from wanting to be firefighters.
Alex: Yeah definitely. The sources have told me that on top of the retention problem, there's also a recruitment problem. Word gets around that it's a dangerous job. // And some entry level positions at Target pay more than starting forest service salaries. I spoke with one rookie forest service firefighter who was discouraged from continuing in the profession by colleagues who had worked there for a long time, who told him to get out while you're still young, because you're gonna be away from your family for weeks at a time fighting these fires. The work is getting harder. Housing is an issue and there are also issues with healthcare. Right now, forest service firefighters in order to get coverage for certain chronic diseases like cancers, they have to prove that the disease came from their employment and most municipal and state firefighters have presumptive coverage where it's assumed that if they get like lung cancer, that that was the result of firefighting. //
Gustavo: So what can be done about all this burnout, Ron? Is it really as easy, especially when it comes to doctors and nurses and physicians, is it really as easy as just more time off for folks and better pay for them and just hiring more people?
Ron: Yeah, I think that can be part of it. I think there's also structural issues. // I mean, one of the things that //I remember hearing about was in the pandemic era, everyone's probably gotten used to talking to their doctor or a nurse on the phone, or maybe even messaging their doctor over the phone. But one of the things that's found out as, anyone who knows me knows is, that doctors are also getting a flood of emails now. And it's just getting to the point where it's just, a lot. And so // how would a hospital system create systems in place so that it's not s o burdensome // maybe it's staffing up, other ways to kind of help out. Situations where not everyone is // kind of burdened. So it's kind of about thinking smarter and also thinking structurally about how do we make things in a way that puts the health of key workers first.
Gustavo: I know structurally that's something that science Rosanna has been fighting, uh, to fix for decades. Well, maybe not decades, maybe in the past couple years with stem programs and trying to diversify the people who are coastal scientists and all that. So is that what we need? We just need more nerds to be, uh, inspired to join the ranks?
Rosanna: I mean, what Ron just said also made me think, like, I would be curious to hear what other folks think, but I think respect is important too. To add to like this sense of hope. Like I have felt a really cool shift in energy lately within the science space, it is getting more diverse. There's more attention to the pipeline, but I think what I've really been drawn to is just seeing more and more scientists gathering in person again in labs at conferences in classrooms, and just having the organic conversations that are so important to the spirit of discovery and just validating and empowering each other. I was recently at a workshop where more than 50 scientists got together to discuss this one problem that they were all trying to solve. And I had not seen something like this since pre-COVID and they came from dozens of fields of science. There were grad students, there were principal investigators, and it was just so cool to hear them share what they knew from their corners of expertise and to build a world together and to hear the brainstorming in live time. You could feel the gears turning and all the science, like actually at work and it was super inspiring. And I think we lost that at some point in the pandemic and just this idea of reconnecting with each other and respecting each other and building off of each other and expressing gratitude.
Gustavo: I love that. How about this hope robots and for once I'm not joking, is there any talk of automation taking over, especially some of those more arduous tasks? Uh, Ron and, uh, Alex.
Alex: Yeah, it's funny. You mentioned that because Mariano who wrote that resignation letter, I talked about one of his chief frustrations was that he'd been trying to bring more automation to the Fireline in the form of drone technology. That can be used to monitor and help map fires to detect spot fires, and even to set controlled burns without having to have helicopter pilots make these risky low altitude flights. // So he went through a lot of training to become an FAA certified operator, but he found the forest service considered this work to be collateral duty. Something he'd have to pursue on top of his job, leading the hot-shot crew for no additional pay. And that factored into his decision to quit. And now he's gonna be working on drone technology in the private industry. So automation's great. There's a lot of demand for it in firefighting, but you still need people to strategize and develop that technology and train others in how to use it. And without adequate staffing, that's not possible.
Gustavo: Ron nurse robots, uh, Jetson-style. Are we there?
Ron: Well, I mean, I think there are ways that // you can use automation to really help things. // When I was looking at medical records for myself, for my mom recently, I was just kind of amazed at how much information you can now get, electronically. And // the more information that you can get electronically. You can really bypass a lot of // strain that you might get in terms of // going to the doctor's office // in person doctor's office is a lot more time consuming than a telephone call. In fact, on a personal note during the pandemic, I got shingles over the pandemic, but I…
Gustavo: God.
Ron: Based off of the, the stress that I was feeling covering the pandemic, but, they were able to diagnose it on a screen. So..
Mux in
Gustavo: That’s bad. Are you okay?,
Ron: Yeah, yeah. This was like year one of the pandemic. So it's much better. It hasn't flared up since then, but you can still get shingles.
Mux out
Gustavo: You know, we can't do an episode about burnout and disasters without asking each of you, especially in light of Ron getting shingles outta stress. How are you folks doing
Ron: I’m doing okay. I, I, I went
Gustavo: Shingles? Notwithstanding.
Ron: I went on vacation in // New England. And so , that was a blast. // One of the things that I actually just read based off of this report on burnout in the healthcare industry, was actually a quote that the surgeon general heard from one of his like mentors, which was never stand when you can sit never. When you can lay down, never stay awake when you can sleep. And I thought that was just so great because I think for a lot of us, we feel like, the current environment is work, work, work, work, work, and like, it's so important that you center your life around health and wellness and enjoyment because that's why we live life and why we do work. // We need to take that time to rest and make sure that there is a sense of joy in what we do.
Gustavo: Alex, how are you doing?
Alex: I'm hanging in there. I would say anybody dealing with burnout. My number one piece of advice would be to get a dog. I love spending time with my dog, Steve, whenever I get upset, I have a difficult time working on a story. I just take a break and like hang out with him and it really helps also naps.Lot of naps, help
Gustavo: Rosana, how are you doing?
Rosanna: Well. I mean the past few years have not been easy. I'd be lying if I said things have been fine, but I also didn't get shingles. So…
Rosanna: I mean, and I will say my survival tactic has been to ask Ron, whenever I'm feeling down, what he's been up to, because he's always doing something delightfully unexpected that makes me laugh. Even getting shingles is delightfully, unexpected, and very Ron, you know, or learning something super hilarious that like everyone else has known about for years. And Ron is just discovering for the first time, like the fact that you're supposed to cut plastic six pack rings. And…
Gustavo: Oh, my God.
Rosanna: And you should always just try to ask Ron pop culture questions that will always make you happier.
Mux in
Gustavo: We need our masters perpetually healthy. We must keep 'em shingles free. We will work towards that.
Mux beat
Gustavo: We'll be back after this break.
Mux beat to fade out
BREAK 2
Gustavo: And as is our tradition with masters of disasters, after all the talk of doom and gloom, we have to end with joy. So, Ron, what is your joy?
Ron: My joy has been // seeing wildflowers and also seeing the mentions about Jacorondos, which I will not get into..
Gustavo: Jacarandas are evil death trees of purple rain, nuclear crap.
Rosanna: Why don't you tell us how you really feel Gustavo?
Gustavo: (hearty laugh) Okay. So wildflowers are always beautiful. Alex, what's bringing you joy?
Alex: I've been feeling under the weather recently, so I would say what's been bringing me joy is actually like a lot of soup. I'm a big fan of soup. I've been eating a lot of soup and it helps
Gustavo: And what’s joyful for you right now, Rosanna.
Rosanna: Well, just to stay on the theme of hope. I was talking to a journalism class yesterday and there were so many students interested in climate change and they asked such good questions. It was really inspiring. So yes, we're talking about burnout and you know all these structural issues that we have to wrestle with, but you know, the next generation really gives me so much hope and are truly an inspiration.
Gustavo: Yeah, I don’t usually don't offer joy but I'll agree with you; like talking to young reporters. They always bring folks joy because they remind us of why we do, especially in, in genres, as hard as what all of you do masters. Like this is next generation they're committed to that. So that's total joy.
Rosanna: Absolutely.
Mux in
Gustavo: And that's it for our masters of disasters, our monthly series with our LA times, reporters of ruin.Ron Lynn, Alex, Wigglesworth in your, uh, power outage and Rosana Shaw. Thank you, masters.
Rosanna: Thank you.
Ron: Thanks.
Mux bump to fade out
BREAK 3
OUTRO MUX IN
Gustavo: And that's it for this episode of the times, daily news from the LA times.
Shannon Lynn was a Hef on this episode and Mike Kein mixed and mastered it.
Our show is produced by Shannon Lynn, Denise Guerra, Kaha, Barian David Toledo and Ashley Brown. Our editorial assistant are Madeline Amma and Carlos Del. Our intern is Syria Henry. Our engineers are Mario Diaz, mark Nito, and Mike Heff almost said Catholic. Our engineers are Mario Diaz, Mark Netto and Mike Lin. Our editor is Kinzie Molin. Our executive producers are, has a and sh Hilton. And our theme music is by Andrewin like what you're listening to then make sure to follow the times on whatever platform we use. Don't make us to P your podcasts. I'm gusta. We'll be back tomorrow with all the news and desmadre. Gracias.
Outro mux out