LGBTQ Ukrainians fight Russia for survival — not just for their country, but for their very identity.
Ukraine was never a utopia for gays and transgender people, but activists there say things have improved over the years. Now, though, people are worried that Russia’s invasion could put all of that progress at risk. Today we talk to two LGBTQ+ Ukrainians, one who’s fighting against Russia for his country — and another who fled Ukraine but is continuing her fight for LGBTQ+ rights. Read the full transcript here.
Host: The Times: Daily News from the L.A. Times producer David Toledo
Guests: L.A. Times Latin America correspondent Kate Linthicum
Hey, what's up. It's Gustavo Arellano. It's June, so happy pride month. And over the following weeks, the times is going to bring you stories about queer people from around the world. I'll be handing the mic over to my LGBTQ plus colleagues here at the LA times for this series. And today to start off, Time's producer, David Toledo, one of my jefes, he brings us to the front ines of the war in Ukraine, where queer people are fighting to preserve the rights they've gained over the past decade.
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tape: The world is standing with Ukraine. It's true. It's beautiful. But they don't know many things that happened in different communities there. And I hope there will be some big, big change.
David: Ukraine was never a utopia for gays and transgender people.Bbut activists there say that things have gotten better over the years.
tape: I see the progress and I see the future here because I like the Ukraine is full of opportunities.
David: However, now people are worried that Russia's invasion could put all of that progress...at risk.
tape: When Russia started occupation, we were afraid that we can lose a lot.
Russia, they are known for homophobia and transphobia. So it's kind of impossible to become someone there.
David: And those fears aren't hyperbolic/ Decades of Russia's history of human rights violations. Show us that Ukraine's LGBTQ plus people are right to be worried.
AP CLIP: the brutality displayed against Ukrainian civilians has raised all red flags.
AP CLIP: Russian police detained as many as 30 gay rights activists who took part in an unsanctioned rally in St. Petersburg.
David: Queer people in Russia, face jail, sometimes torture and even death.
tape: They don't have any rights, like we have at least here and they don't have basic rights that we have as LGBTQ plus community, for example, in Kiev or Lviv.
David: For many in the LGBTQ community, it's been a reason to flee the war, but for others it's been a reason to stay behind and fight.
David: I'm David Toledo. You're listening to The Times daily news from the LA times. It's Friday, June 3rd, 2022. Today the stories of two queer Ukrainians, their paths in search of pride and how the war pushed them in very different directions.
David: Joining me to share their stories is my LA times colleague and foreign correspondent, Kaitlyn Wickham, Kate, welcome to The Times.
Kate: Thank you.
David: Kate, if history tells us anything, it's that in times of crises, it's often society's most vulnerable who suffer the most children, it’s the elderly women, it’s the queer people. And based on your reporting, that's been true in the war on Ukraine, which you've been covering for the last few months. Early on. You started talking to some members of the LGBTQ community there.
tape: I'm Yura Dvizhon. I'm a music video director and co-founder of Ukraine Pride, and, uh, my pronouns is he/him. ,
David: And Yura Dvizhon was one of the people you started speaking with. What's his story?
Kate: Yeah. So Yura is a very well-known film director in Ukraine. He has directed like dozens of music videos for some of Ukraine's biggest stars. And in recent years he has emerged as one of Ukraine's kind of best known queer activists.
tape: I came out, four years ago. It was, um, it was dedicated for international day against homophobia in Ukraine.
Kate: He has started an organization, Ukraine pride, that has had this annual pride party. He's just become kind of a real vocal advocate for queer rights and Ukraine.
David: And since he's come out, how has Ukraine involved when it comes to LGBTQ rights?
Kate: So Yura is the first person to point out that Ukraine is by no means a utopia for queer people.
Kate: But in recent years, things have been getting a little bit better. More than anything, I think there's been more visibility
tape: In our society, in our news, uh it's okay. Uh, right now to, show, uh, some gay characters at some TV shows, for example, like, the Voice contest or Dancing with the Stars.
Kate: People like Yura, other, you know, performers. It's now not totally uncommon to see queer person or a trans person on television, whereas a few years ago it absolutely would have been.
tape: Right now homophobia in Ukraine is not a value for public people, especially in show business.
Kate: And there's been kind of this growing Pride March every year that is also kind of symbolizes how, while there's still a lot of ground to cover in terms of gaining more queer rights, Ukraine has become a somewhat more kind of accepting place of LGBTQ people.
tape: For me, everything started to change when Ukraine, won, uh, our revolution of dignity and, uh, Since that time, pride became more popular and bigger. And with each next year, people started to join prides in Kiev.
tape: People from Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Georgia, other countries who are not to support, uh, LGBTQ-plus people as we have it in Ukraine.
Kate: And so, it's not great, but compared to Russia and other places around there, Ukraine is looking pretty good for queer people.
David: But not everybody is as optimistic as Yura when it comes to Ukraine's progress.
Kate: Absolutely. You know, while Ukraine has made incremental improvements on queer rights in recent years, or at least queer visibility // it's still way behind other parts of the world, and in particular on trans rights, I spoke with this woman, Z farmer Lu, who is a singer songwriter and trans activists.
tape: I'm a 31 years old trans women from Ukraine. I use pronouns she/her.
Kate: And she talked about how difficult life was for trans women in Ukraine before the war.
tape: Of course my story is like an unpopular opinion..It was a hard path, a difficult one, you know? It was just chaos, but thankfully I survived.
Kate: And I think a place we really see that is around kind of the distinction between the experience trans women have in Ukraine and, like gay CIS men like Yura.
David: So, what was Zi up against before the war started?
Kate: So, Zi is interesting because she was born and raised in Crimea.
Kate: This kind of part of Ukraine that was annexed by Russia, nearly a decade ago now.
tape: It's a small-minded, little town with the conservative people. So I was such an alien there. It felt like an alien. Since…Since I can remember myself.
Kate: And so, she saw firsthand, you know, what happened when Russia kind of took control of a part of Ukraine? And she said that basically it became much more intolerant of people like her. It became much more conservative. Zi, you know, never really felt comfortable in her family.
tape: I came out as trans woman in 2014 on my 24th birthday. And my parents, they didn't take it so well, you know, my father told me that I died for him and it was very painful to hear that from your father on your birthday.
Kate: So she left for Kieve, Ukraine's capital, when she was still young and kind of reinvented herself there as a singer and songwriter.
Kate: And actually was quite successful, you know, she was on various television programs like the Ukrainian Voice. And um, kind of became basically this really visible trans person in a country with very few of them.
tape: No matter in what kind of horror. I encountered, I always stayed optimistic,
David: More after a quick break.
David: So Kate, what was it like for Yura and Zi and Ukraine's LGBTQ community in those early days when the threat of Russia became more and more eminent?
Kate: Like all Ukrainians, they were terrified, you know, the Russian attack in late February really took the whole country by surprise.
POP of early days in war
tape: Russian military forces continued their onslaught as Ukraine's president fears for his people and nation.
Kate: And they immediately sort of started trying to figure out, do we stay? Do we go? What does it mean to be living in a city that's has bombs falling on it. But these two people, and I'd say the whole LGBT community and Ukraine had kind of a, a secondary fear, which was you know, what would life look like for queer people like them under a Russian occupation?
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David: So as Yura contemplated what his life would look like, what did he decide once the war got started?
Kate: So he's really been on the front lines of this fight against Russian forces. Uh, Since bombs were launched in Kiev in late February. You know, he thought for a minute about trying to maybe sneak across the border, but… but no, he decided he wanted to stay and fight.
tape: They wanna change us, change our identity and we have to defend and protect ourselves and protect our language, our culture.
Kate: You know, for all the gains that he had helped win in recent years, it was important for him to stay in Ukraine and try to, you know, protect not only his country, but also these incremental games that he had helped make for the LGBT community.
tape: // We fighting and trying to defend our territories and to help our warriors on the front line.
Kate: And he decided that in Western Ukraine where there were fewer bombs dropping, that he would be able to do the kind of work that he's pretty good at. He's really good at making content. And that's really what he did. That's how he's kind of helped with the war effort. He's, you know, made videos, he's raised awareness about LGBT people and the struggles they're facing. And also LGBT people who are fighting.
tape: Some people are LGBTQ military. Some helps with some, food and medicine. Some people help as a volunteer on the kitchen. Some, uh, are working at hospitals. So all these people are part of // our future when it's really important to show that all these heroes, who are doing such an amazing and great job and who are in a high risk to die, are also LGBTQ.
Kate: So he's // making videos and raising awareness about the war effort in general, but also what LGBT people are doing to fight Russian disinformation campaigns. You know, using his considerable social media presence to pressure Russian celebrities to denounce the war in Ukraine, And he's raising money. He's raised a lot of money for LGBT organizations and people inside Ukraine.
Kate: You know, if Russia was successful in its occupation of Ukraine, that would mean that LGBT people like him would lose rights, would face violence. So for him, that was sort of all the motivation he needed to really do everything he could to help Ukraine's war effort.
tape: It was scary, but I'm happy that Kiev is getting back to normal life and we hope that they will never come back. It's really sad to see all this destroyed buildings without glasses. And windows and with bombed buildings.
David: What about Zi? Where was she when the war began?.
Kate: Z was asleep in her apartment in Kiev on the morning of February 24th. When Russian bombs they can falling across Ukraine.
tape: When the war started I lived in Kiev the capital and just like everyone else, I woke up at 5, 4, 3 or something in the morning to the sound of bombings. ,
tape: That moment, we realized that it wasn't a firework. It was something bad and big happening and it wasn't a gossip anymore. We were confused. Should we pack our backs with essential staff? Should we look for nearby shelters? What should we do next? We were confused.
Kate: She stayed hunkered in her apartment for that first week of the war. You know, she was terrified to leave, not only because of bombs, but also because // with martial law And Ukraine issuing guns to pretty much any man of fighting age who wanted one. She was afraid for her safety as a trans woman in the streets. And then she got a call from a queer friend who told her some, unsettling news basically that there were people, homophobes, transphobes, who were looking for her.
tape: When I received that call, I was more afraid that moment of Ukrainians, of armed civilians. Because you know, you have to protect our country and everybody had guns. So I was afraid of that group and of a nation of Russia. So I knew that I had to leave Kiev. And then somehow I got in touch with my former colleague and he had some space in his car and we left Kiev a week after the war started.
Kate: So she decided she had to get out of Kiev, had to get out of Ukraine. So, this is when things became really tricky for Zi. And for other trans women across Ukraine, because she had the male sex stamped on her passport, but she identified as a woman. Because her passport said she was a man. It meant she would be unable to cross the border because of this emergency decree that had said any man of fighting age had to stay in Ukraine to fight the Russians. Z, has been living as a woman for years, but she said she hadn't changed her passport because the process is so onerous in Ukraine. She actually would have been forced to stay in a mental facility for a month and go through this kind of humiliating process with doctors and nurses, you know, just to kind of legally change her // gender in the eyes of Ukraine.
tape: I didn't want to go through that hell.
Kate: So she hadn't done that. And it meant that she was trapped basically by her own identity and unable to leave Ukraine legally.
David: And what happened to Zi when she tried to go through those checkpoints in Ukraine?
Kate: Zi really had to flee for her life. She arrived at the border with Romania and couldn't get across legally. She basically was stopped by Ukrainian police who were giving her a very hard time and she was afraid she would be imprisoned or, you know, sent to do military service.
Kate: And so when she had a chance, she ran. She basically left all of her possessions behind and made a break for it. She crossed this muddy swamp and walked through bushes and finally had to swim across this icy river to ultimately cross into safety in Romania.
tape: It was dark. It was cold. It was international women's day. I was kind of drowning. But I somehow crossed that river and I was so… it was so cold. I was exhausted. I used all my energy but I was just fighting for my life. And from my rights.
David: And where's Z now, is she in a safer place?
Kate: She is. She spent a little time in a refugee camp, but ultimately made her way to Germany where she's now living with a family who seems really loving and supportive. She is trying to figure out what her life is going to look like going forward. You know, she left all of her friends, all of her earthly possessions behind in Ukraine. So she's really doing a lot of soul searching and trying to figure out, you know, what does her new life look like?
tape: I have so much space now for a new life. Where I choose joy, definitely. And freedom and being true to myself and just being in love and to express myself to the fullest.
Kate: And Z is also continuing her activism.
Kate: She understands that she has been given a gift in a way, living in Germany, getting for the first time to kind of live without the pressures of a fear that she lived with being a trans woman in Ukraine. So she's using her voice to speak up for trans women. And everywhere. Um and trying to make life better for people like her.
Tape:I don’t see myself returning to Ukraine, but of course I wish the best for Ukraine I want to, you know, make some change here because there is a law transgender law that is very outdated. It was created in 1980. So it's time for renewal to update it, but it can take a few years. So this, this year I will visit parliament and give some speech. So I'm using my voice towards it. This is my thank you, you know, back to Germany.
David: We'll continue the conversation. After the break.
David: So Kate, Zi expressed the climate for LGBTQ people inside Ukraine as not particularly accepting prior to the invasion. Yet Yura seemed to be a little more positive that the situation was getting better. So to what extent has the country made progress in terms of expanding queer rights in recent years?
Kate: So it it's been a mixed experience for queer people in Ukraine in recent years. Queer people, in partnerships, still lack many rights. However, there have been some progressive openings. // The government barred employers from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity, for example. And although it’s still difficult for trans people to change their gender on their legal documents, rules have been reformed to make it a little bit easier. So, it's been piecemeal. There've been little gains, but the situation overall is still very difficult for queer people.
David: So it sounds like progress is moving slowly. What about presidents Zelensky and other Ukrainian lawmakers? Where do they stand in terms of LGBTQ rights?
Kate: So Zelensky is an interesting case, because he himself has evolved, it seems, a bit on these issues in recent years. It wasn't long ago that Zelenskyi who, we have to remember, was a comedian before he became president, made fun of queer and trans people all the time. In fact, he once made fun of Z herself who was a contestant on a singing reality show at the time. He had that history, but in recent years has actually come around and // seem to support queer rights more and more. In 2019, he snapped back at this homophobic heckler who had interrupted his speech.
Kate: He said, we all lived together in an open society where each one can choose the language they want to speak, their ethnicity and sexual orientation. Leave those people be, for God's sake. In terms of his government, they proposed hate crime legislation that covered LGBT people in 2020.
David: But despite Ukraine's slow moving progress, the Russian regime on the other hand has made it no secret of its prejudice against the LGBTQ community. What are some of the threats queer Ukrainians could face under a Russian control?
Kate: So over the last two decades, Russian president Vladimir Putin has waged an all out war on the LGBT community. Basically framing it as part of this larger campaign to protect Russia's traditional culture from what he describes as this onslaught of modern values promoted by the west. Puttin has called gender fluidity a quote, “crime against humanity,” and he equates homosexuality with pedophilia. In 2013, he passed law known as the gay propaganda law, which made it illegal to promote gay rights. That's been used to jail activists and shut down LGBT support groups and basically silence the queer community in Russia. And in really one of the darkest chapters in recent Russian history, Putin and the Kremlin famously turned a blind eye when they were this series of anti-gay purges in the Chechen Republic, in which government officials kidnapped, tortured and killed some men suspected of having sex with other men. And Putin said nothing.
David: Wow, that just sounds completely inhumane. But I'm not shocked. Um, let's say Ukraine is able to survive the greatest threat to its existence since its modern founding. Do you think there'll be progress on LGBTQ rates after the war?
Kate: That's a good question. I think there's a lot of hope among queer activists in Ukraine that yes, this war is going to be the impetus for a lot of new LGBT rights in the country. One legacy of this war is going to be that Ukraine becomes closer than ever to Western Europe. Ukraine wants to join NATO, it wants to distance itself from Russia. So queer activists are hoping that that means also embracing the rights tthat exists for queer people in those Western countries.
tape: I hope that next year, Ukraine pride can expect a Zelensky on our event and maybe he will sign laws that, uh, could make Ukraine really free and modern and European country.
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Kate: So they're very optimistic that in the coming years // as this war hopefully fades into the distance that Ukraine will become a more open place for them.
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David: Kate, thank you so much for this very important conversation.
Kate: Thank you so much.
David: And that's it for this episode of the times, daily news from the LA times. Myself and Ashley Brown, where the half is on the side. And our show is produced by Shannon Lynn, Denise Guetta cash, upper Sallian, Ashley Brown and angel Clovis, our engineers, our Mario, the us market Nieto and Mike Heflin, our editors, Kenzie Moreland, our executive producers are Hasmeen Aggie, Leora, and Shani Hilton. Our theme music is by Andrew like what you're listening to then make sure to follow the times on whatever platform you use. Don't make us the Pucci podcast. I'm David Toledo, Gustavo. We'll be back on Monday with all the news and this Mallory happy pride y muchas gracias.